What does enlightenment mean to you?

Discussions relating to conciousness, spirituality, and the great dilemma between materialism and dualism

Re: What does enlightenment mean to you?

Postby rjraymond on Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:23 pm

Enlightenment to me...

To have darkness changed to non-darkness. By default, light from outside myself is required. Although my intelligence may be considerable(?) and my ability to reason noteworthy(?), in the end enlightenment does not come from any man's wisdom.

To have an enlightened worldview a man must receive it from the owner.
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Re: What does enlightenment mean to you?

Postby Larry Chasteen on Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:32 am

Brandon, permit me to state this as simply as I know how.

You have shown me that you would not submit your will to an external God even if you saw Jesus raise Lazarus. Since most people basically believe as you do, I contend this has been what's wrong with the world for six thousand years. Yahweh has not failed humans, humans have failed Yahweh. Hopefully, the following will help:

"A complete innovation in Lurianic Kabbalah was the stress laid on the high rank of the souls of Cain and Abel, and particularly the former. These two sons of Adam were taken to symbolize the forces of gevurot and hasadim, that is, the restrictive and outgoing powers of creation. Though the outgoing power of hesed is at present greater than the restrictive power of the gevurah and din, this order will be reversed in the tikkun. Paradoxically, therefore, many of the great figures of Jewish history are represented as stemming from the root of Cain, and as the messianic time approaches, according to Isaac Luria, the number of such souls will increase. Hayyim Vital himself believed that he was of the root of Cain." Kabbalah,Encyclopaedia Judaica

In other words, no matter how you sugar-coat it, your enlightenment, or anybody else's for that matter, is identical in concept to illuminized Cabala, i.e., the spiritual legacy of Cain.

This is what enlightenment means to me.
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Re: What does enlightenment mean to you?

Postby Brandon Norgaard on Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:29 pm

Larry Chasteen wrote:You have shown me that you would not submit your will to an external God even if you saw Jesus raise Lazarus.

Ok, this is from the other thread about whether Jesus was the son of God. I gave clear and detailed reasons why I don't believe this. You asked whether I would believe if I saw Jesus' miracles myself. I said yes because that would be evidence. You then asked an unrelated question of whether I would submit to Jesus simply because I saw him perform miracles. At this point I said I wasn't interested in discussing this further because I could tell that this is a point of obsession for many, including you, and that you people want to continue to discuss this issue ad infinitum. Quite simply, even if I saw Jesus perform miracles, this would not logically imply that I should submit to him. I don't see the connection. I try to live in concert with the laws of nature, which were created by God, but I don't submit to God's will because it doesn't seem like God wants anyone to do that. I have concluded that living in concert with nature is beneficial to people, and I guess from this you can say that doing this is indirectly submitting to God's will since God created those laws, but actually thinking that you are submitting to God would be going with a supernatural explanation when a natural one is available, and it is clear to me that this kind of thinking is unreasonable.

And no, the quote you mentioned did not "help". You seem to be obsessed with this Christianity vs. Gnosticism thing. You want to reduce opposition to Christianity to Gnosticism when there is no evidence for this. If this is all you are going to do then I don't see the point in discussing these issues with you.
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Re: What does enlightenment mean to you?

Postby Larry Chasteen on Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:29 am

Brandon, I wish you would hang in there and duke it out but since you're already looking for the exit, this will be my last post.

I quote you, "Quite simply, even if I saw Jesus perform miracles, this would not logically imply that I should submit to him. I don't see the connection. I try to live in concert with the laws of nature, which were created by God, but I don't submit to God's will because it doesn't seem like God wants anyone to do that."

It doesn't SEEM like God wants anyone to do that!? Perhaps you should re-read the New Testament. You don't SEE the connection when Jesus repeatedly emphasized that He came to do the will of the One who sent Him!?

Your desire to see a miracle turned out to be a straw man. I told you I would prove Christ's Mission using Pharisaic history but you bailed out. The fact is, you don't want the Truth.

You prefer F. Scott Peck when the true road less traveled is found in Matthew 7:14: "...strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

You declare, "So I don't think that there is a God who is directly urging us to live nobly, but we can come to know God's will in part through intuition." This is double-speak.

The law of nature is survival of the fittest and, in the human species, the fittest is he who has the gold. Trust me, Brandon, there's an external Truth based on logic that will not be denied. It goes like this:

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Galatians 6:7 AV

I'll leave you with a smidgen of Pharisaic history...

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24 NKJV

"a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those who saw it...chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding cities..priests...felt a quaking and heard a great noise...Jesus, the son of Ananus...began on a sudden cry aloud..."Woe, woe to Jerusalem!"....there was a star resembling a sword...that continued a whole year..so great a light shone around the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time...a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple...the eastern gate...was seen to open of its own accord..." William Whiston,The Works of Josephus,p.742,743
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